Hrag Vartanian - Serious, Playful and Radical | S4 E09
“I didn't want to brag but I did want to impress on you that I'm probably the biggest bitch you've ever encountered!”
Who else but Hrag Vartanian could help us to break through another boundary? Our guest for this episode of TOB is our first self-identified, ‘biggest bitch’ you’ve ever encountered’ man. We spent nearly two thought-provoking, hilarity-inducing and adoration-filled hours with the 45-year old Hrag. His identities are multitudinous, ranging from writer, curator, critic, artist, culture vulture, Syrian-Armenian-Canadian and – highly treasured – New Yorker.
His accomplishments are also numerous, as the co-creator (with his husband) and editor –in-chief of Hyperallergic, the heralded on-line forum for arts, culture and politics that now reaches more than a million readers. Hrag’s insights into conquering FOMO (Fear of Missing Out), friendship (with TOB guest and artist Sharon Louden), intersectional feminism and art’s discontents kept us riveted. And his reflection that “we all become our own mentors eventually” left us comforted.
So have a listen, laugh along and become a Hyperallergic subscriber (https://hyperallergic.com). You’ll be so glad you did!
+ TRANSCRIPT
Joanne and Idelisse: Welcome to two old bitches. I'm Idelisse Malavé and I'm Joanne Sandler. And we're two old bitches we're interviewing our women friends and women who could be our friends. Listen, as they share stories about how they reinvent themselves.
Joanne: You're the first cis man on two old bitches.
Hrag: YES! I didn't, I didn't want to brag, but I thought, I, I mean, I did want to impress you that I am probably the biggest bitch you've ever encountered.What proof do you need?
Joanne: Idelisse Malavé we've broken another mold.
Idelisse: We certainly have!
Joanne: We interviewed Hrag Vartanian, a man, our first man who put to rest any questions about whether or not a man will identify as a bitch.
Idelisse: He definitely did. He embraces it.
Joanne: He embraces it. He auditions for it. He claims it. He was a total- is a total delight.
Idelisse: Oh, a wonderful, wonderful human being. Yeah. We were introduced to this wonderful human being by another Old Bitch
Joanne: Sharon louden. It is this one bitch leads to another cycle that we seem to be in. We had Houry Geudelekian who introduced us to Sharon Louden, amazing artist who said to us, you need to interview Hrag
Idelisse: And interestingly Houry, and Hrag are also old friends, right? So it is this tangled web. We are weaving bitches um, and kind of wonderful and not only does one old bitch lead to another, but one question leads to another, you and I have been talking about the fact, um, and I think, um, pushed somewhat by our conversation with Sharon again.
You know, why 50, we'd been thinking about why, why do we interview women over 50? And then really started thinking, oh, it's really about the mid point in life. You know, when the end is like in sight, right. And why not? You know, why, why an arbitrary number, but also the sense that we could do. Whatever we want you know if my mantra for the year is if it pleases me, I will.
That's right. Why not interview a wonderful man
Joanne: Exactly! On color outside the lines. I mean, we do not have rules to two old bitches
Idelisse: We don't. And since we don't have them, we don't have to follow them. And I am such a big fan and I know you are of Hyperallergic we are groupies. Yeah. I definitely am a groupie.
Hyperallergic has 1 million followers. Um, it has a week day and a weekend, you know, kind of a blog, email that goes out to folks and I love it because there two sort of taglines are: playful, serious and radical. What's not to love about that. All true about her Rog as well. He is playful, serious and radical, and they also use art and its discontents.
Joanne: They have such an amazingly galvanizing. Kind of entry into the arts world in the way that they blend politics, justice, arts, questions.
Idelisse: And I think for, for, I think this is true for both of us, you know, they're two of our big passions in life or. Justice. Right. And art absolutely. You have an art field home, right?
Uh, I love making art. When I,- when I have the artist -we decided that in this century
Joanne: We absolutely did. Speaking of this interview, I think it's time to get to it. Don't you?
Idelisse: Yes. Let's start with one of our favorite question. So we often like to ask the people, um, that we have these conversations with. Who are you?
Hrag: Who am I? What a great question. Who am I? Well, I am the editor in chief and co-founder of hyperallergic, but more than that, um, I am a writer. I am a, you know, a culture vulture. I'm a curator. No, I'm a totally promiscuous culture with no cis identifying traits.
no limitations. Exactly. And, uh, you know, And I just love being a New Yorker and that's one of the things that I love to do.
Idelisse: How long have you been in New York?
Hrag: It's about 20 years now.
Joanne: And is that an essential part of your identity?
Hrag: It's become one. It really has.
Joanne: You're not from New York. I mean, you weren't born in New York.
Hrag: No, I was born in Syria. I was raised in Toronto, my passports Canadian and, uh, culturally I'm Armenian, um, you know, and here I am and I found, I found my, uh, city of exiles. And here we are
Joanne: your city of exiles, meaning exiles from everywhere.
Hrag: Yeah. I feel like, I feel like a lot of us end up in New York. We don't really fit in a lot of other places.
Idelisse: And I think a lot of, many of us who stay in New York stay for the same reason, we realize... you go, you try, I'm going to try okay San Francisco I'll try. No, no, no, no, no.
Hrag: You know, it's funny. I'll tell you. I once interviewed Erik Gosey in years ago and he actually said something that I thought was really resonated because he lived in Chicago before New York. He goes, you know, there are like eight types in Chicago and if you don't fit in, you move. And he goes, but in New York there's like 24; he did not go through them. But I just loved that because that was exactly. That was accurate. You're like, because you know, there's always like a group, even if you're no fit into one, you fit into maybe two and it's like, somehow it makes you feel comfortable.
I do make art. Um, especially with Sharon Louden and she will insist that I call myself an artist, but like to think of it more fluently fluidly. Yes.
Idelisse: Yes. Kind of got left out. And yet you collaborated.
Hrag: It's true. We did collaborate, I guess. I just, because of, um, you know, particularly as a critic, you're like the baggage of what an artist is and isn't, and it's like, I feel like I can do that, but it's not the central part of my identity. Do you know what I mean? So I guess it's kind of like saying a New Yorker, right? It's sort of like many other things, but I feel like that's somehow grounds me.
Joanne: So, like a lot of new Yorkers, myself included Hrag has experienced FOMO. Or fear of missing out. Do you have it?
Idelisse: Um, I, I did, but I think like Hrag, I got over it somewhat, and then I went to the other side, which you've made now
Joanne: Fogo fear of going out. So let's hear how Hrag got over his FOMO.
Hrag: I think you just get over here insecurities and you realize that, that, you know, no one else is doing, no one is doing something that you can't miss anymore, because whatever it is that completes you is what you need to be doing. Do you know what I mean?
Joanne: I know that that is your underlying analysis and practically, how did you get over FOMO
Idelisse: Was there moment where you realized...
Hrag: You know, um, I think it was around the time that it was probably like a blockbuster show or two at a museum that I just wanted to get to. I wanted to get to, and I never got to them. And then I sort of, I was beating myself up over this and I'm like, why didn't I, why couldn't I get there? And I went, and then I realized like in six months later I was like, guess what?
My life isn't different. because I couldn't get do that. Do you know? And it's not like everyone was talking about it and leaving me out or it's not like I couldn't read things about it or see photos about it. And I was like, what am I doing? Where's this guilt coming from? I mean, you know, oh, well we all know where our parents, but, um,
Idelisse: And I'm sure you saw any number of really great shows. Right.
Hrag: And that was the other thing I felt like seeing these other things was actually -when I felt rushed or do it, I was forgetting all the good stuff I was seeing
What if we just trusted ourselves and just be like, you know what if I get there. Okay. But if I don't guess what? I'll just talk to a friend or wait for the next show or, you know, so I think - or go home. Oh, actually, I'm going to turn it back on you guys. Cause that's something that I've struggled with now. How much time do you, could you stay home and feel good about it as a New Yorker, as opposed to this idea that am I just walling myself up in my apartment.
Joanne: It's the opposite of FOMO; it's the opposite of FOMO, Fogo, fear of going out.
Idelisse: Hrag defines himself as a writer critic, someone who uses images, drawings, photos in his work, it just in the way that artists often will use text in a painting. Um, he, as someone who writes, wants to use images, and I think this was central in some way to what led him and his husband to co-found Hyperallergic
Hrag: It came from just wanting to create in the world what I wanted to see, you know, and something that, you know, would be a passion project. My husband and I, we had other jobs before that were certainly better paying than than what we're doing now. But, you know, we were like, you know, we want to do something that has an impact in the world and we want to put out in the world and we wanted to try something no one had done, you know, which is an online publication that was critical that wasn't just about commercial galleries. That wasn't about all these sort of traditional things people often associated with art, but then was like really engaged. So it's like, you know, like feminist arts organizations are like In my opinion, like our grassroots, we want to be able to represent those ideas because really at the end of the day, one thing I noticed is, you know, cause I, I went to school, I went to college around the time of the first culture wars you know what they call it culture wars of the 90s. Yeah, exactly. And one of the things I realized. You know, there are so many amazing ideas, but the media wasn't representing them accurately or in an interesting way that I thought was really about getting to the real issues.
This is part of our DNA. You know, we're going to talk about this issue until the end of time, you know, whether it's inequality or whether it's, you know, unpaid interns or people getting screwed over by assistant deliberately ignores them and you know, it was a hard sell initially to my husband who is an interactive marketer guy,
Idelisse: Your husband has a name?
Hrag: Yes, Veken. Fine. I'll bring him in! He is from New Jersey. He's co-founder and the public is the publisher. Yeah. I mean, I'm the editor in chief, so we did the dividing and I don't think there's a couple that spends more time together than me and him.
Idelisse: And the smile on your face when you say it
Hrag: Because we love each other so deeply, you know, and at the same time, we just love doing this together. And honestly, we know, even when we fight, it'll be fine. First, we started, our desks were facing each other in the office. And then within a couple of years our desks are literally in the opposite corners of the room, like the furthest possible. Now we're in different rooms.
Joanne: You know Ide one of the things that both Hrag and Sharon made me think about was the extent to which artists play an important role in calling things out in naming injustice. And it's interesting the way personal history affects, I guess one's sensitivity to that and also one's willingness to do it.
Idelisse: Well, I think it's personal history, but it's also it's identity. How, who one is and how you define yourself. So it's that combination of experience and who you become an are becoming. And I think Hrag, you know, Hyperallergic is as political, playful and serious as Hrag is right. and calls out, as you said, these different power dynamics that go on in the art world across society.
Joanne: Yeah. And, and Hrag talks about how his experience of being bullied as a child gave him that awareness, that sensitivity to those things. It's interesting how many people we talk to that can relate the roots of their sensitivities, right? Their ability to recognize things from their own experience. And he also then weaves it into this much larger systemic analysis about power, about capitalism.
Idelisse: Exactly. Yeah. So let's listen,
Joanne: You'd rather listen to her Hrag than us?
Idelisse: Yes.
Hrag: I actually think when you don't talk about politics, you're still talking about politics. Do you know what I mean? There's still political bullshit about small P big P level of that. No, I mean, you know, it, I mean, just the fact that a painting on a wall, how did it get there?
You know, I mean, you're just like, all these systems had to be in place and serving certain purposes for that painting to get on your wall. Do you know what I mean? And you can pretend like that system wasn't there and it didn't favor male artists. It didn't favor certain artists with certain educations. It didn't favor this. You can pretend. But some of us don't want to do,
Idelisse: you can ignore what's not on your walls.
Hrag: Exactly. Or you can also ignore, ignore, like, you know, the Met when they do, you know, certain works have, have artists names and certain work don't, why?
I was bullied a lot in school and you know, and when you get bullied, Eventually you realize that it's not about you or at least I hope you do. Most people. I hope you've realized that
Idelisse: For some of us, it takes a very long time speaking as someone who was bullied it's like those are deep wounds.
Hrag: Or if ever honestly, some people, I mean, some of us are lucky when we get through it, you know?
And I, and I, cause I don't think we necessarily have more skills than other people. Sometimes it's luck, sometimes it's the right person showing you the right thing. Um, and so then you start realizing that there are certain behaviors that go on in the world that aren't, that aren't really useful long-term and are just about bullying or this type of thing.
I will say that my Armenian heritage comes into this story too, because growing up, you know, as, as a family whose whole family is impacted by the Armenian genocide, You will live, grow up in a society that didn't accept it as a truth. Right? So you realize that official stories are not always true. Do you know, like, meaning like, so then, you know, you growing up in this sort of environment, you realize you're like, you know what, there is truth and truth is not determined by the most people in the room who agree.
And you know what, sometimes in the art world, that's exactly how truth is determined for some people. And I wasn't interested. I want to actually get a truth, not consensus. And I think sometimes people confuse the two. And so for me, once you have a clarity about what is consensus versus what is truth?
You kind of like, there's a clarity there. And I think particularly, I mean, when we were talking about feminism, you know, it's like I was in the 90s, I was much more kind of like. You know, go, go, go like feminist, feminist. And then I realized it was like, no, I need to like keep reinvestigating what it means to be a feminist.
Like it's not a thing you become, it's a thing you transform into, I think, and you sort of, and there's an ebb and flow to it. Do you know? And it's sort of like evolutionary. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, I mean, so I got really much more interested again in feminism in different ways when, you know, discussions of intersectional feminism.
Because that felt like a natural evolution of a conversation that's been going on for quite a while. And that felt really galvanizing for me. So for me, that was one of the defining things. I was like, wait, finally. a feminism that can relate to all these aspects of my life. That doesn't force me to choose
keyboard, just trying to compare themselves in every which way. And you know, it's, it's, I get it. Like the scraps are sometimes given out and people are fighting over them. Right. Exactly. You know, and I get, I get why that happens, but yeah. At the same time, maybe we should be creating our own institutions and not keep fighting over the same ones.
And I think that's the best energy in feminist art community. For me has always been that creating your own spaces, kind of like your podcast, like creating your own space, but it's not alternative. I think it's central. That's the thing
And then, you know, I think change happens through co-opting sometimes, unfortunately, where they go, wait, that organization is doing something really interesting. They're getting the energy. Let's also emulate them. Great.
Idelisse: And culture. I mean, think of pop culture who gets co-opted and-
Hrag: I mean, there would not be an arts community if there wasn't middle-aged. That's right. Almost every single arts organization, the majority are middle aged women and even more middle-aged white women. Like just that's it. That is literally the majority of arts organization, administrators, museum administrators, even curators.
Like they're all, it's like, I mean, curator's a little more complicated than that, but that's still a huge thing. And, well, what if all those women came together and change the institution?
I think we should demand more of people around saying, okay, well, I get it. You're a curator, let's say at MoMA and you're a woman. Great. But how many women have you curated? you know you make me think that, you know, critical mass is sometimes not enough. It requires critical timing or something, right?
The moment has to be right. And I think this time, that critical mass, at least from my experience, um, do you want me to give you color? Do you want me to give you the cynical take? Yes, I do. He was cynical takes also the cynical take is that capitalism just demands so much right now that literally we have to excavate everything to offer it up as a market and consumerism.
So now you can't afford first generation abstract expressionists. So you're going to look at the ones that didn't quite get all the first tier shows and cause they need to sell those. So you need product, you need product. Exactly. And that product is for an audience that's much more diverse than before. So the product has to be more diverse.
Idelisse: Oh, I think the market rules like regardless of what happens, right?
Hrag: Well, it's cynical. Cause I'd like to think it's a little bit more than that, but I do think, I do think that certainly has a big word.
Idelisse: I think it's cynical because capitalism is cynical. Market is cynical. The market doesn't care about real value or, and that you're talking about the market.
Hrag: Yeah, right, right. And unfortunately that's still dominates some headlines, but the problem is when it, the market thinking has permeated all other aspects of the community. So that's what I'm really concerned. You know, I think that's dangerous.
And I think at the end of the day, um, that's going to hurt the community in general. Artist's sort of understanding that they can, they have agency. And I think often part of our job, I think even at Hyperallergic I feel it is giving people a sense of agency. Yeah. Um, do you know? And I hate that. I feel like sometimes we have to give people permission, but sometimes it feels that way, the better art scenes I see are the ones where artists don't feel like it's just about one solution, like showing art in a gallery or stuff, you know, like. That's so they have to feel like they are part of a bigger world. So in my perfect world, artists would be employed by every hospital. Every corporation would have an artist in residence, like think about if every hospital in the city had an artist in residence.
Some too, there's been a couple of projects. They've done things, but like imagine what would that be? Somebody who literally would be responsible, let's say at a hospital to decide the aesthetic experience of the patients, the patient. Think of how many times you've been in an office and you're like, if it's somehow felt good, you just would change your mood.
Joanne: That's such a beautiful idea,
Hrag: right? It was like, so how could we get there? How can we, do you know, how do we get there? Well, I mean, It has to come from a cultural debate in our society to be like, no! Artists have value. And it's not just about accumulating money
Idelisse: My experience with particularly African-American artists in that area in Los Angeles, around there. There's a, an urge, an appetite maybe is a better word, an appetite for transformation, as opposed to reforming and, you know, kind of what I was thinking of is like equal rights. You know, I, I want what white men have, rather than don't, we all want something different than that. And I think that feels strongly to me.
Hrag: It is the freedom to imagine something else, which I think for a very long time, a lot of communities did not feel like they have the freedom to. And I do think the internet has contributed to that in that because so much media was centralized. So with the centralization, they felt in a more accessible and it also felt like it was like getting marching orders.
You know, it's like Dan Rader was on the screen and you're going to hear what the news was. And that was the news. That was the news. That's not the case anymore. Do you know, we create our own worlds. And I do think that you're right. Like, I think there is this idea of, of like, no, we're going to reimagine the world.
So go ahead. Yeah. You know, my, my attempt at that was like a Hyperallergic. How can I reimagine the word? In a way, that's going to talk about the world in a way that I find fascinating,
Idelisse: As we noted at the beginning, Hrag is our first man guest. And identifies embraces the idea of being a bitch
Hrag: it's not caring what other people think it's about putting something out in the world and dealing with the repercussions and being all right with it and being like, guess what? I don't need your approval.
I don't need you to validate that, but I'm also honored when you do you know, so it's not a F you, it's more of a, that's nice
Joanne: Hrag is so present so sensitive. So there, we weren't surprised to find out that a lot of that came from his mom and his parents more generally.
Idelisse: Yes. I think with what they offered him, he offers to the world.
Hrag: I grew up with a pretty kind of, uh, opinionated parents where, you know, it wasn't about agreeing with them they just wanted to argue sometimes.
Idelisse: And they respected your opinions, so they did really encourage this,
Hrag: I mean, it's, it's crazy but my mom. I don't know. Does anyone else have this experience? My mom, when I was a kid, she'd be like, when I'd write it, cause I'd have journals and she goes, don't worry. You know, I would never read your journal. as a little kid. That to me was like one of the biggest gifts she ever gave me the respect, the respect that even as like an eight year old kid, she was like, you're allowed to have your own space to explore something that I am not going to - yeah. I mean, she could have, she is my parent, right. I was blessed.
She would reinforce it. That was the part that I don't know. I guess the only way as I got older, I realized how valuable that was, but I was so taken. And then I'll tell you something else she did that really influenced me as a kid was cause I, you know, we're in high, high school, you take art classes like everyone else.
And I did some paintings and a couple of my paintings were really depressing. And she walked into my room one day, cause I was working on the paintings and she like just looked at them and then she took me outside. She was like, you know, is everything all right? Are you okay? And that's also when I realized I was like, wait, art can actually communicate something when you're even not doing it consciously.
And that was really a mind like expanding moment for me. I was like, wow, she got it didn't even occur to me. I thought she would be like, you know, just like, oh, that's nice or whatever. Right. What often parents do. But she was like, she was like, are you all right? And you know what she was right. I wasn't alright.
Idelisse: It's so wonderful to me, that Hrag talks about having this mind expanding experience, um, with his mother on paintings. And, and as we continued talking to him and knew a little bit in advance, it's his mind expanding experiences. Vis-a-vis the art with women aren't limited to his mother. He has this incredible friendship with Sharon Louden, that they have worked on, that they have produced art with
Joanne: that they have really plumbed the whole practice of collaboration, as you were saying Ide, Hrag is so mindful, right? He's mindful about his art. He's mindful about his writing. Very mindful about friendship, about friendships with women.
Idelisse: Well, again, when you say mindful, it's, you know, mindful is I think to some extent, it infers that we, or it implies, I should say that there's a practice there.
Joanne: Exactly.
Idelisse: And Hrag has a feminist practice and he has a political practice and he has a friendship practice.
Joanne: Which is not always easy. And he keeps working at it
Hrag: it challenges me every day. And I think that's why I love it. You know?
Idelisse: How can you describe the friendship. What is this friendship?
Hrag: You know, that's, it's a really good question. I think it's a kindred spirit. Do you know? I think that's where it is, but it's not a kindred spirit. Like let's just go like, you know, though, we kind of joke. We're going to go popping out into a, uh, you know, a sun filled field. Um, but it's not quite that it's, it's, it's like challenging each other to be their best and not accepting the BS of like somehow, just because we all fall into, you know, you know, things that we just, you know, that we just accept and we think is true and I'll be like, Sharon, that's not true come on. You said the other day this. Come on, call you out and she'll call me out. She goes, well, why didn't you get that done? Or, or, oh, no, it's all right to rest. And just like, you know, and it's, it's kind of like being each other's sounding board and it's, you know, it's, it's rare. I mean, I've rarely ever had that.
Joanne: So how did it happen? What happened.
Hrag: She invited me to talk at the New York academy. And I said, sure. And I thought her questions were really engaged and you know, something that I've never encountered before was selling, who actually did their research. I into somebody, they were interviewing that way at that, up to that point, you'd be surprised how many people don't actually do their research.
They don't know what they're talking to, or you're just like, you know, some generic critic they brought in. So they're going to ask you the same it's criticism in a crisis. Is it? No, her questions were specific. They clearly had something to do with what I was doing in the world. It sounded like someone who had listened.
You know, so that automatically great. That was the beginning. And then I realized that we both had this desire to be like, you know, evangelists for arts in a way. And so we both had that urge and we both want it to be very open, but I also noticed both of us would get hurt sometimes because we were too open.
So there was like this, this kind of like synergy we felt. But then I also noticed, you know, and I think she did too. There were also problems we have to work on in order to be really good friends. And we did have times where we fought and we didn't talk to each other for a while, but somehow I never, I felt like it was just a process.
I just realized sometimes I'm with her and I feel like the best friendships come this way is, you know, the more I worked on myself and felt more secure, the more somehow it seemed to invigorate her and vice versa. Like, as she felt more empowered in her own life, I felt better. And I think she felt better when I, you know, it's this weird place where. What's the saying, you know, like, you know, don't ever keep a friend of someone who's jealous about what you're doing or something. I don't know. There's some saying like that.
Joanne: don't cover it. Your next door neighbors wife
Hrag: yeah, that's the biblical version. That's the biblical version, but, um, yeah, it's something to the effect of that. And, and, you know, I just thought she made me a better person.
What was unusual for me was to discover someone in the art world like that, because, you know, once you get to a certain level and stuff, people get instrumentalized, right. People are always trying to get something out of you. Yeah, exactly. And how many times, you know, I'm sure we've all had this where someone is like oh, no, they're a friend. And you're like, no, they're not our friends. Um,
Idelisse: Stop doing what you're doing or lose your job and you will find out they are not a friend.
Hrag: That's right. and, you know, with her, it just didn't, I didn't have that feeling. You know, I felt like this was, um, really, really powerful. And then I was just, I mean, w when we do events together, I feel it in the room I feel the energy of us in the room,
Joanne: you have great energy together.
Hrag: And I think, and that's when it was like, okay, this is clearly about more than that. And now, you know, and it's amazing cause it wasn't her work that led me to her first. And now I thankfully, I mean, I think it's a great bonus. I love her work, you know, and it's gorgeous and it's an extension of her.
Idelisse: There is that vulnerability, right? And that one brings to creating a friendship relationship. And the people I find that I get really close to are both, they both are the ones that somehow you think bring out the best in you. You know, I'm like the best Idelisse when I'm around my friend, Joanne. Right . But it's also the person who loves you despite the worst of you. Right. And sees that just as clearly
it's true. And it's true. How, how affirming is that? How I, it makes me want to relax.
Hrag: I mean, being in the room, I mean, Sharon says that and I totally feel the same way. It's like just being natural with the person, you know, just having a conversation. Like, you know, and just being like, okay, okay, well guess what, I'm going to sit here and read this book now and you're going to be fine with that.
And I know you'll be fine with that because it doesn't matter.
Idelisse: And how the friendship become this installation origins, what's that story?
Hrag: It was her first take. Cause I think she was, cause I think this is like type of person Sharon is. She was like, okay, I want to think about collaboration. And she was thinking of it more, I think, in terms of her books.
And she saw the things that were coming out of that. And she was like, well, how can I extend this to other parts of my life? And I think most of what she does is pretty collaborative except for her studio practice. And I think it was a real challenge, like, and test for her to like figure out like, maybe that's something I should open up.
And I was like, and I just thought great. We didn't, we went through a big episode a few years ago where we were just like working through some stuff together, which we got through. And I think we both felt like that clearly something was there that we needed to deal with and it wasn't verbal. Do you know, it was not a verbal thing.
And I was thinking very much about origins and, and friendships and what that meant and relationships. My father had died, um, the year before. So, you know, and, and made me realize like, wait, you know, these relationships manifest themselves in so many small ways that are not just verbal. And maybe this could be another way Sharon and I could work through and not even work through because that makes it sound like there was a stumbling block, but really explore our relationship in a different way, in a non-verbal way, even though we did do some performances and other things, you know, as well, but like, let's just try it and it felt connected and it was amazing how there were so many similarities that we were like, we're using the same palettes and we didn't even realize it, but of course we're friends, that's the way it happens. Right. You know, you pick up these little things.
I really respect collaboration. I think it's really, really important, um, because I'm not a big fan of the individualism. You know, it's sort of like the be all and end all. Um, so, and I think that comes from me to me from like feminist practice, you know, the idea of sort of like, how do you decenter yourself a little, how do you bring in the community? How are you part of a group?
Idelisse: You think that's part of Hyperallergic success? Yeah. Yes. Sort of that defining characteristic.
Hrag: Well, like for instance, we have two editorial boards. The weekend editorial board is separate from the weekday and we actually don't have, yeah, we actually do not even like, so they have total freedom.
That was part of the deal. And we have total freedom to criticize them if we want and vice versa. And because, you know, I didn't, I didn't think it needed to be one. I didn't see a reason for that as an example. Do you know, um, and then trusting writers and contributors. So like our LA editor, um, Alisa, she's been fantastic developing our LA coverage and, you know, and I trust her, you know, and I trust her to bring in the story is knowing what she could she's capable of now.
And she's gonna write about things and, and commission things that I wouldn't have done, but that's totally fine because I actually, when it was never under the illusion that my worldview was the only worldview. And I think that's a big difference. Cause I I'd love to think that when you read Hyperallergic you get glimpses of many worldviews
Idelisse: Hrag approaches his work at Hyperallergic, and as a writer critic in a very, non-traditional way.
Hrag: Often using it as an opportunity because as critics, we do have a privilege often and I think it's best when you use it to ask questions. We sometimes can get answers to that other people can't. So when I use it as the example, like, um, you know, during a press preview for Ryan Trecartin shows at MoMA PS1, years ago, I just went up to Ryan.
I was like, Ryan, do you really expect me to sit through all your videos? I calculated they're like 12 hours. And he was like, no. And it was just like, I know that sounds ridiculous as an example, but that was an example of like, being able to like, get that answer. That other people are dying to know sometimes that isn't about me.
Like being able to be like one up going, this is the best start because of it. No, it's about no, I'm a professional in the field, just like you are. And I have the right to ask questions because of my role. And I'm going to use that to understand it. So whether it means, you know, reviewing a show at a gallery and pointing out that they haven't shown a female artist in two years, do you know or pointing out, it is a gift, but it doesn't make you popular.
Joanne: So, what's the role of a critic from your perspective?
Hrag: To lead a conversation and offer insight and research and, um, and, and critical thinking around different topics, but then also veering from the press line. The PR line to see, uh, you know, what the reality is on the the ground. So for instance, when Christoph Büchel um, did his, uh, mosque project during the Venice Biennale only a few years ago, people were trying to celebrate it, but I decided to go out during the non press preview time, and I was kind of shocked that it was not very good. And it wasn't what they were pretending it was, it didn't seem to feel kind of hollow, you know? And I wrote about it in that way that I didn't experience it the way that PR spin wanted you to experience this work. Right. And that's my job. I feel like to be able to be like, I am not going to just go to during the walkthrough when you asked me to, I'm going to go when, you know, when "regular people" are going
it's, it comes from this idea that, you know, um, I feel like a lot of creativity comes from discontent in the world. You know, you want to see something in the world that doesn't exist. Right. So that's kind of the seed of it. So now what if we sort of just embrace that? And, and sort of like just went with it and that's what I feel like we do.
And so where's the discontent here? Like what is it like, what is it somebody wants to put out in the world and why? And that's important to me. Very, very important.
Joanne: And how does age play into all of this?
Hrag: Um, well, Let's see, I think age, uh, in the arts community has gone. That's a pendulum I'd like to see swing the other way a little bit actually.
Cause I think because of the old system, there used to be these sort of like little conventions that people adhere to. One of them was don't write about young artists, like in the same way, like 22 year olds give them time to develop. Right. That's not true anymore. Since, especially after the. Well, the, the turn of the century, like you - to turn of the century 21st century
Is, uh, you know, that went out the door because people were - artists were having shows out of their MFAs and out of college, people were buying things out of their studios. That went out the window. Exactly. You know? And so it became a different, okay, well now it's more fair game, you know, and these little things, but then I think what happens now is there such a fixation on emerging and young artists, but I just wonder, like where that's going, if it's just to make part of the system, like, you know, when the new museum does an exhibition, it's all young artists, people are like wanting to apply.
But that actually does not tell me anything about the quality of the show. It doesn't tell me anything except that they're young. And again, the cynical part of me comes out and says, well this is just because they're creating fodder for the galleries. You know, and that doesn't interest me, you know, while so many mature artists who never had a career in galleries are doing such interesting work and why, you know, so I'm more interested in the intergenerational conversations nowadays. because I think that's where the, the long-term magic magic is going to happen. They are, but they're not necessarily curatorially. They're a little difficult, you know? And I think part of the reason I, well, I think it has to come down to also, who's paying for shows nowadays shipping and stuff, like most curators, Um, you know, that are institutions that have any kind of budget, budgetary restrictions, which is practically, all of them are more likely to show artists where they can get the shipping for instance paid.
And where does that happen more? Artists that are affiliated with big galleries, with institutions that can pay for that stuff like that. Um, so it's a system that's feeding itself. Right. You know, but then what if you have a really amazing project and don't have that. So I know when I curated a show at bam, I had to ship one carpet piece.
It was a carpet not even delicate, right. It costs me like $5,000 to ship it from Dubai in the proper way, one way. And my budget for the show was 10 thousand. Like to give you an idea of like exactly. So that there, all of a sudden, if that, and that came from an artist with galleries and not that the galleries paid for anything, but if I was at a museum, they may have paid for that. So it's influencing what you're seeing. Without you knowing it's influencing.
Idelisse: It seems to me that there are more old women artists getting a lot of press and getting shows. Can I make that up? I didn't make that up. Right. But is that one of the. Yeah, movement's , trends. Oh, now let's look at the old lady art now and now we'll look -
Hrag: I don't think so. I don't think, I think it's, uh, more of a structural change.
I think it's a corrective change. Um, I'm actually more upset about the, the generations of artists in the recent past who literally haven't that have lost all their work. Like, so one of the things, when the women of abstract expressionist show went up in Denver, I spoke to Gwen Chanzit who's the curator.
And she said part of the problems they had with some artists, all their work has gone because just in the eighties or seventies, when they thought they were never going to get any attention to just threw it out, So whole bodies of work by artists will ruin out. Absolutely. They moved on. Maybe they got married, they moved to the suburbs. They, you know, this idea.
Idelisse: I mean, not that I consider myself a real artist, but there were all sorts of things I threw away, which I'm fine not having. Right. But imagine if among this level, right. And then 30 years later they'd come back and you know,
Joanne: that was on the streets, we rescued that! Yep.
Hrag: I mean, it happens all the time, but literally like abstract expressionists women who like we're showing in that era, like with all everybody, you know, in the important galleries and then by the sixties, no one was paying them any attention because the system excluded them. Right. It wasn't that they weren't giving shows at the time because.
They were shown. It was the art historians, the critics, the museums that really dropped the ball in the sixties and excluded them up until recently.
Joanne: I love the question that people ask each other, like, what would your 65 year old self say to your 25 year old self and, and asking Hrag what kinds of surprises, regrets, joys he sees now at 45, um, kind of led to those answers.
Hrag: The surprise was, I thought, I thought that I would have one career my whole life. And I now realize that I probably have three and I'm totally fine with. I've already had one. Who knows what my third is at this point. And that's something I wish would have been told to me earlier - understood that there wasn't that like anxiety, um, you know, about it, uh, regret.
I regret not learning more languages. You know, cause when you're young, it's so easy to pick up the languages. I wish there was a, well, I speak Armenian in English. Well I learned French and Italian, but it's so like now at this point it's just, I can understand it and stuff. Yeah. No, my Arabic is really bad and it's just not very-
No matter what you think. Other people really don't know much better than you, you know, Yeah, some do, about certain things, but not everything. Yeah. And there isn't, uh, you know, don't look for a guru, just trust yourself and, you know, and I think we all try to become our own mentors eventually.
Idelisse: We spent more than an hour and a half didn't we, Joanne. Talking.. It went so fast. , but we talking laughed. We, I hope, you know, you'll hear some, you've heard some of the laughter or, um, during our conversation, but with an hour and a half and, and bless him, he was so generous with his time and presence and insights and, and thoughtfulness, his joyfulness.
Right. I mean, Even after an hour and a half, all I wanted was more. We might have to do Hrag part two absolutely very least we can do is take the man to dinner.
Joanne: Well I mean, he's now in like the bitch Legion, so we're all good. All good with each other. And we're really good with you listening to this podcast. If you're not already following Hyperallergic, we think you should start immediately. If you're not following two old bitches, you should subscribe to two old bitches, and those 5 star reviews keep rolling in. We love them. The more you click five star happy with two old bitches. The happier these two old bitches are. So thank you for listening.
Idelisse: And until next time.
Joanne: Thank you, Idelisse.
Idelisse: Thank you, Joanne.
